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Thursday, 10 September 2009 13:40
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Please stop thinking like Hitler.
When Hitler came to power in Germany, the country was a mess; the economy was shot, crime was on the rise. His "solution" was to blame a particular race. Many people believed this simplistic approach and the rest, as they say, is history.
Colonialism was wrong. Some horrific crimes were perpetrated on local populations all over the world. These crimes were initiated and sanctioned by the British government at the time. Sure, individuals here and elsewhere in the world carried out the crimes. But in almost every case they were conscripted into the Army. It was done for power; to paint the globe pink. But to view it as the while man subjugating the black man is a gross misrepresentation of the history. The British Empire tried to subjugate anyone who was not Anglo-Saxon. As before it did the Ottoman Empire, the Roman Empire, the Crusades. Basically anyone with a different label.
Should the ancestors of Hitler or anyone German be held responsible for the crimes carried out by the Nazis? Should I. as a British passport holder, be responsible for crimes committed by people unknown to me? No. But should the British nation (represented by its government) be held responsible for these crimes? should the present German administration apologise on behalf of the German people? Yes. And thankfully both do. Britain pays substantially more (in terms of proportion of GDP) into Africa and the sub-continent. the German taxpayer covers many of the costs of the Holocaust centre. But, as governments, not as races. They make these payments on behalf of a country, not a race.
To blame crime on any race is just as illogical. The same with Apartheid. The actions of Apartheid were racial, clearly. But they were designed, and instigated, by the government of the time. No 'race' was responsible for Apartheid. It was the individual leaders of the time.
To listen to Malema or Mugabe, there is a striking resemblance to Hitler. Blame a whole race for the problems caused by a few people. I have no doubt that if any of us had a genetic test, none of us would be "pure". It is such a nonsense to keep being stuck in this racial categorisation.
Which is why I want to see Affirmative Action stopped. It forces us to keep labelling people (and it has never really worked anywhere it has been tried). I do think we needed to have it initially, but for political reasons. Now we can replace it with very strong anti-discrimination laws. Bizarrely (perhaps?) I would suggest a model of the Canadian legislation be used.
It should be illegal to categorise anyone. Crime then is seen for what it is. People without a future, on the poverty line turning to crime as they see no other future. The economy and industry controlled by an "old boys network", which has largely survived by inviting a few new people (Ramaphosa, Sexwele, etc.) into their ranks.
We also all need to accept that life is never fair. That's just the way it is. We can remove some barriers, but there are inequalities in every society.
To blame race all the time is to think like Hitler. He died a coward's death in a bunker. I wish his ideas had gone the same way. But unfortunately they are alive and well and being regurgitated in Southern Africa, and here on MyDL. Comments (16)
  written by OS GIKEN, September 10, 2009
Oh, left this out. By saying whites, it means ALL whites, the whole race - meaning you must show/state your ideology, do you recognise the consequences of apartheid as a white man/woman or don't you, believing that 15 years is enough for these babies to get over their missery, stop raping us white people and stop this BEE crap as we never had jobs waiting for us...lol
A whole RACE did not partake in Apartheid - go read up on the history of SA...some of the black militants of the ANC were WHITE!!! :eek :eek yes...
written by OS GIKEN, September 10, 2009
Abort here... not all whites took part in apartheid either. If the goverment of the time cracked down on blacks, do you think 100% of whites in SA all took up guns and went hunting the townships? NO, just some POLLITIONS and their police enforcers. Probably a few hundred to thousand REAL racist and the rest just scared s**tless that the government would shoot THEM if they said it was wrong. OK, so bad things happened but I didn't do anything, my father didn't, my grandfather didn't, HIS father didn't... 4 generations of people who did not hunt/oppress blacks...that goes back at least 50 years
written by OS GIKEN, September 10, 2009
LOL Abort...obviasly...thus I stated in my comment that some whites were in ANC fighting camps helping tumble over the racist regime.
My WHOLE point is to (ONCE again) hear what white people think of apartheid and whether they recognise and agree of its consequences...were at least getting somewhere!!!!
written by OS GIKEN, September 10, 2009
Koo - do you recognise the cnsequences of apartheid? :eek :grin
written by OS GIKEN, September 10, 2009
Mikez here - abort mate I believe you're living on pink fluffy cloud off in the heavens. I could take a drive to rustenburg or Pietersburg today and point out a few thousand racists... Or you could visit the AWB facebook page if it's still up last I counted 7000 members have a look at how much people voted for the national party I'm all for forgiveness but don't forget or try and sweep the past under the carpet. Besides that whether everyone actively took part in apartheid the truth is whites definitely did benefit from apartheid and even the most hardened heart would have to agree with that very simple it's not about blaming or punishing it's about agreeing that some people gained and some people lost and in order for our country to flourish those social problems must be adressed.
written by AbortRetryFail, September 10, 2009
OS btw - ooooh this debate is officially :p FANTASTIC!!!
written by AbortRetryFail, September 10, 2009
If one doesn't have any other option to vote for of course one votes for the ruling/only party...or they stuff the boxes themselves anyway
racists are not born, they are made. 10000 or even 50000 out of 2.5 million whites? (my numbers may be off) something MADE them racist otherwise there would be 2.5million of course, I've got a nasty statement that will get me into deep trouble: If you want to be better than someone, don't emulate them. If blacks want to be better than whites then they should not be learning from the old regime and doing what those guys did. I'm not sweeping the past under any rug (allergic to house work) but just trying to point out that tarring everyone with the same brush is not right. Even in NAZI germany not every german was a white supremesist, just the leading powers. yes things were not what everyone wished them to be but that doesn't mean every white person was foaming at the mouth mad racist oppressors, some of them/us just kept our head down to avoid getting caught in crossfires
written by barrmar, September 10, 2009
Good post Dissol.
Os - yes, we do have to know about the past and to recognise the political and racial ideologies that caused so much suffering. We do have to remember and be on guard that it doesn't happen again. But that does not mean that we cannot move on. There is still a need to build this young country with vast potential. Mandela stressed a non-racial society - unfortunately there are many that want to blame 'whites' for current problems and talk about whites as a cohesive group. We need much more growth, development and entrepreneurship. Focus on growing and expanding the economy and the need for affirmative action vanishes. Suddenly there are so many new people needed that it doesn't matter what their past status was.
written by fallen, September 10, 2009
Without “colonialism” African’s would all still be living in clay huts and hunt with rocks and spears and there would definitely not have been any roads, shops, schools, hospitals......
Now that “colonialism” has stopped all these things tend to fall apart again. I think the British & Dutch, back then did some really amazing things in Africa.
written by Dissol, September 10, 2009
I am NOT saying that apartheid should be forgotten at all. Same with the Holocaust. There are appalling consequences of Apartheid, & I have never said or suggested otherwise. I have never taken a tour of Soweto; rather I have worked in Soweto, and Kayaletsha, Umtata, etc., etc. I don't just sit back and whinge about the inequalities; my work, my life is actively trying to change those inequalities.
But what really gets me pissed off are people who wallow in the past; their gaze constantly backward, without offering anything concrete on how to move forward. For your information; my kids know all about Apartheid, and the Holocaust & colonialism. They know that I would not even visit this country before 1994. They know family friends who lived in exile in the UK who we befriended, & who encouraged me to move to the New South Africa. But they do not live in the past. They don't categorise their school friends. They know that we need to understand history so we never allow these atrocities to be repeated. (My son came home from school very upset a few days ago as one of his best friends used the K word, and he was not sure how to deal with it & whether the friendship would survive... This is a boy who is used to obscene language from his father, as when I get angry I become Billy Connelly's foul mouthed younger brother!!) Everyday (and literally every day) I have to work with problems caused by the system of Apartheid. If you think the system treated black & coloured people badly, then treble that and you will get close to how the system treated people who were black and disabled. I have met elderly disabled people living in townships who have never left their shack; never been able to go from the Cape Flats to Cape Town. They were treated appallingly by the Apartheid regime; they served no purpose, so were forgotten. I could wallow and whinge and attach labels, and blame white, able-bodied people. I could (and I do sometimes) cry at the inequality of it all. But that serves no purpose. So instead I am trying to improve their lot in life. Fighting and working with the present regime to ensure that these people, and the next generations can play their part in society. Easy for me to say?? I am sorry, but how f**king dare you? The people that I am working with are working for the future. When I am teaching, showing, helping someone, to say, self catheterise themselves as they have not been shown how to do so in the state hospitals, we don't moan and blame a specific race; we try to make sure this does not continue. I don't take tours. I roll up my sleeves and do some work. Taking tours and visiting the heritage sites are "too easy". Especially when there is work to be done. Just "touring" and "looking" alone serves no purpose. I could decide that the country is totally messed up (with enough people like you still living in the past, and not even your own past), pack my bags and move back to the UK. But there are enough great people and opportunities here to keep me here. I still think that the future for this country can be bright. I do believe that I am able to make a difference here. It would be a whole lot easier if we could get rid of the bigots and racists. Certainly, I have met more racists and bigots (of all flavours) here in South Africa, than any other country. But who said life should the easy? Fixing schools, colleges, stadia so all of our society can use them is a very rewarding occupation (maybe not financially, but in every other way). When I am called to say a school or a place of worship that was built under the old regime then generally they are inaccessible. So we fix them; we don't just blame Apartheid. Recently, we have been working with the government to try to ensure that the new low cost housing units are built accessible from the outset. So called housing for life. This work is anything but "easy". So far this year I have broken two wheelchairs, been mugged, stuffed my shoulders up worse and spent more rights away from my family than I would want to. I do what I do not out of some apology for my race or nationality. I don't do it for public recognition, or some superstitious belief in some afterlife. It gives me reward enough to know that our work is making a difference, changing the society for the better. Interestingly, what I have found out that if I do need a*sistance myself, it is more likely to come from the people at the bottom of society's ladder. If I fall out of my wheelchair in Soweto then I have a much greater chance of an offer of a*sistance than say in Sandton. And that is nothing to do with race either... Germany did not fix its problems after the Nazis by constantly living in the past. They learnt that they could never allow history to repeat itself. And then they knuckled down and did the work. Working to a future, not wallowing in the past. Try it. How does my skin colour or place of birth effect all that? Yes; I came from a privileged background. But then so did all my school friends by extension. Being an established UK boarding school, we had kids of all cultures, all colours from all over the world. So, should I have to carry a cross because of that?? following that logic then probably all of us should, including yourself! I refuse to be categorised in the petty way of skin colour, genes, or history. Whatever my individual ancestors did or did not do does not have any bearing on my life. I am trying to change things in South Africa for the better; so does that make me more of a South African than others? I don't care what my ancestors did. I cannot the held responsible for their actions. All I can do is to try to ensure that this world is a slightly better place for my ancestors. Fallen; mindless comments like that are unworthy of a response. :sigh
written by redsaid, September 10, 2009
GREAT post and an even better comment! I seriously can't add anything except that I agree with you.
(Oh, and like you, I'm also a member (albeit a very unwilling one) of the human race!)
written by redsaid, September 10, 2009
Thanks Red; for a while, I thought I was a lonely voice!
written by Dissol, September 10, 2009
Barrmar, I could not agree more. To use race as the simple categorisation is the crudest, most ineffectual of all methods. This crude method was the one used by the Apartheid regime, and by the Nazi's. We need to acknowledge that, and make sure that it never happens again. Probably bra size & penis size would be more meaningful...
Perhaps our support should be means tested, and not gene tested? That way we would be more certain that the support goes to the right people.
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"To listen to Malema or Mugabe, there is a striking resemblance to Hitler. Blame a whole race for the problems caused by a few people. I have no doubt that if any of us had a genetic test, none of us would be "pure". It is such a nonsense to keep being stuck in this racial categorisation." - Wholeheartedly agree with this. My blog was about whites not wanting to accept apartheid which is a fact, and that apartheid is solely responsible for many crimes today! racism is rife today, both ways!
"It should be illegal to categorise anyone. Crime then is seen for what it is. People without a future, on the poverty line turning to crime as they see no other future. The economy and industry controlled by an "old boys network", which has largely survived by inviting a few new people (Ramaphosa, Sexwele, etc.) into their ranks." - Funny how NOW many want to think like this and not followed this train of thought when Racism was rife in SA in 70's???
"We also all need to accept that life is never fair. That's just the way it is. We can remove some barriers, but there are inequalities in every society." - yes Life is NOT fair, why accept this and not what apartheid did, this is a slap in Apartheid victims' face dude!!!
"To blame race all the time is to think like Hitler. He died a coward's death in a bunker. I wish his ideas had gone the same way. But unfortunately they are alive and well and being regurgitated in Southern Africa, and here on MyDL." - its COWARDOUS for whites not to accept the concequences of apartheid!
"I am offended that an author feels he needs to ask people's race before they comment. I can almost a him nodding "ah! White woman, she would say that. Coloured Man... hmm... that makes sense..." Why not ask bra size, or the size of commenters penis? It has as much relevance." - honestly speaking if you missed the point of asking for RACE refferance, that's your problem - if the blog was about boob's I think you know me quite well, I'd have asked for sizes
:eek :sigh :sigh :grin :grin
LOL "Apartheid was wrong. Colonialism was wrong. The Nazi's were wrong." - the woman who was in a Nazi concentration camp was about 101 years old a couple of years ago..she asked that what happened there NEVER be forgotten, as so many people WILL BE FORGOTTEN with that memory! Take a tour of Soweto - to the heritage sites and go look at the Apartheid sites, I know you read Mandela's book, great book, however I fail to see its resemblance in your blog - you clearly like the GOOD parts of it, the "let's move forward" parts.
Atypical of many folk who don't want to face the past! We cannot move forward if so many white people still feel that Apartheid served its good, they were not part of it, they condoned it but still shared it's fruits while blacks were tortured...remember apartheid, teach your kids about the wrongs of the past!
"Get over it! The future for South Africa could be so bloody good!" - its sentences like this that I utterly hate! That GET OVER IT crap. Like I said in my comments on my blog, easy for white people to say...
And i'm reffering to race as its always great to hear the different responses from different races - as it will always be different fro different reasons - diverse cultures are what makes SA - SA. our past is flawed, but yet spat in its face by people who dont want to recognise the consequences.
Sad sad ideology dissol!
:sigh :?